Democratic Elitists
As part of my MPhil, I studied a unit on political philosophy. Being a political science course, naturally, we looked at the debates relating to democracy, including John Stuart Mills initial assertion (later repudiated) that certain competent citizens should have extra votes. He was dubbed a democratic elitist.
If that isn’t the tendency running through the, mostly middle class, remain voters I don’t know what is. The number of people who have thrown out the idea that the Leave voters were some combination of simple-minded, misinformed, deluded, racist, bigoted idiots, whose views can not be considered to be legitimate is astounding. Even I am shocked by the anti-democratic sentiment and utter hypocrisy that I have seen. I thought the mood after the General Election was bad.
Right Answer or Choice?
There was no ‘right’ answer to the EU referendum. I repeat there was no right answer that the voters should have chosen.
There was a choice between two alternatives – to remain or to leave. This simple distinction between right/wrong answer and choice is eluding far too many right now.
If you believed remain was the better choice, fine. If you disagree and still disagree with the argument that Leave is a better choice, fine. But to argue there is a right answer which everyone should mindlessly rubber stamp to give the illusion of democracy is nonsense.
Well-Informed or Ill-informed?
Let’s tackle this one from the top. The notion that some people were better informed to make a decision and others just should not have been allowed a say is contemptuous. Compared to me – with a degree incorporating European History, Politics, Law – most people’s understanding of the EU, it’s history and treaties is woeful. You probably don’t know your arse from your elbow when it comes to the ECSC, EEC or EU. No, let’s go the whole hog here. My MPhil involved years of studying the British constitution, sovereignty, and devolution – I should get at least twice as much say as most people if not more based on the ‘well-informed’ criteria. In fact, why should anyone without a degree or equivalent which did not have an element of studying the European Union be allowed a say at all. You are far too misinformed. If you don’t know that Vernon Bogdanor is the authority on the British Constitution then minus votes for you.
Except that is not how democracy works. There are blatantly people who know more than I do on any particular aspect of all the above. In the intervening years, things have changed in the EU for better and at times worse. Well-informed is a matter of opinion. I can set my criteria; you can set yours. It is not objective. That’s why it is not a criterion for being eligible to vote. Just as well too as it would disenfranchise the majority of the world’s population in an instant.
I voted Remain in the end because I have benefitted from being part of the EU and I did not want to pull up the ladder behind me. However, the idea that others should think or feel the same way is ridiculous. It’s not their experience, and no one has to take what I think into consideration while voting whether they were voting the same way as me or the opposite. Take the NHS – the idea that £350 million a week is going to be spent on it is ridiculous, but I took those claims with a pinch of salt and to mean that we ‘could’ in theory. On the other hand, the idea that the NHS is completely safe if we had stayed in the EU is equally ludicrous given TTIP. No one, and I mean no one, had a definitive handle on every single aspect of the all the issues. That’s arrogance talking.
Remain Teachers
I’m most bemused by those remain teachers who argue against a more academic education for working class or poor children because of its irrelevance, then wonder why as adults they have not made ‘better informed’ decisions. Then use this as a justification to undermine their vote and negate their choice.
If you think that we should all follow our hearts and that rational thought is an imposition, you can hardly complain that it’s the basis of some of the voting that took place. If you believe that we should only teach children what’s relevant based on their socio-economic background, then you can hardly complain if they vote as ‘little Englanders’. Not that I believe this was the case for most of those who voted Leave but if it was then so be it. People have the vote and can use it as they wish.
Accept and Agree
No one has to agree on the issue of the EU now or at any future point but it is one of the foundations of democracy that we all accept the democratic decisions that have been made. The way that some people are trying to find technicalities to try and get out of this vote is disgusting and shows a genuine shallowness of their commitment to democracy. It also tells me how little cause these people can have for arguing they are ‘well-informed’ when they can ignore the horrific realities of undemocratic regimes around the world and throughout history. The consequences of Brexit might be bad, but the effects of undermining democracy are far greater.
Racism and Xenophobia
I get that many people are gutted, for themselves, their children and their futures, but this is the same feeling that some on the Leave side have been contending with for decades. I have a whole group of friends that I would not know if it hadn’t of been for Erasmus.
Also, I can see how we have ended up here. Setting the parameters narrowly on what could and could not be debated in this country, in particular on the question of immigration. Are there white racists out there being violent, horrible and displaying the worst kind of nastiness? Yes, but they were there last week too. The laws in this country have not changed to enable them to get away with it. If remain had won, the same incidents would have taken place with slightly different slogans.
Even here, I would argue that those on the left, in particular, have lost any moral argument against the thugs. Those on the far, and even moderate, left betrayed universal liberal values decades ago. How many times have I seen people agree that ethnic minorities can’t be racist? How many people, especially BAME complained about this poster?
I found myself in the rather odd position during the referendum campaign of agreeing with Paul Nuttall of UKIP over this. Saying UKIP’s poster of refugees was racist but not uttering a word about this is the kind of hypocrisy that the far right feed off. Both posters are wrong for the same reasons, but only one got criticised. No amount of virtue signalling or belief in one’s righteousness hides the reality that the principle of treating people equally regardless of race has been wilfully abandoned in some quarters.
The vast majority of those who voted Leave did nothing at all that was threatening or racist and neither are they responsible for the actions of those who did. Having talked to @5N_Afzal yesterday, I accept that some leadership from Leave would help to at least calm the situation down. But it does not invalidate the vote of those who voted to Leave anymore than the views and actions of SJWs or anti-semites invalidates those of the Remain voters.
The reality is that every single group in our society was split on this issue, including ethnic minorities. But of course they can’t be racist so they must be deluded, ignorant or worse still ungrateful. I felt tested a few weeks ago when confronted by a Sikh UKIP member whose argument was that he believed Britain was better off out of Europe because he thought it was better for his business. He was right to vote Leave based on his circumstances. It might give some succour to the far right, but if we wanted fascists to dictate how we act and behave, we could have saved ourselves the trouble of fighting at least one world war. He was born here, he works, he contributes, and he can exercise his judgement to use his vote. If this causes some to abandon their commitment to anti-racism well, it was never meant all that much to them in the first place.
Class War?
My favourite tweet today has got to be the one claiming that working class people have been duped by the elites and that middle-class people were working in the interests of the working class. This Marxist nonsense holds no truck in many parts of the country.
The Labour Party has decided to return to the 1980s and simply can not fathom that the society they are in is a totally different one.
Liz Kendall spoke eloquently months ago at a Progress meeting that Labour could not rely on its traditional base, not the white working class, not ethnic minorities, not the moderate left – they were out of touch with all of them. I couldn’t agree more. None of these are not homogenous groups if they ever were, and certainly, they are more fragmented now than ever.
Jeremy Corbyn also seems to have missed the point that he appealed to the far left, would be radicals, revolutionaries and rebels, and not to the aforementioned groups who no longer see the Labour Party as their natural home.
Individuals and groups in society are entitled to form alliances on issues as they wish. Why should the working class or any other group vote dutifully in a particular way?
Democratic Will
To continue with the story of my philosophy lesson, we argued between ourselves and hammered out every reason why it might be better if certain people had a greater say. In the end, it was clear that nothing excused minority rule because that is, no matter how benevolent the particular ‘elite’ think they are, a dictatorship not a democracy. We just couldn’t bring ourselves to throw democracy or the principle of one person one vote under the bus. It is sad how many have argued to do just that this weekend from the Remain camp.
If there is a second referendum called, so people make the ‘right’ decision, I am going to do what I think is right. I’ll just switch my vote to support Leave because I just don’t agree that those who voted for Brexit deserve to be delegitimised by those who display the kind of contempt for democracy that I would expect from the ruling elite in a tinpot dictatorship.
Naureen Khalid
June 27, 2016 @ 3:35 pm
I voted Remain and obviously I’m sad at the result. I don’t think the result should be overturned. I also don’t think that everyone who voted Leave has little or no understanding of the issues. I do, however, have a few concerns. Firstly, yes racists attacks happened in the past and regretfully will continue to happen. But I strongly feel the Leave leaders need to say these attacks aren’t what’s Leave is about. It pains me to read the Sun headline today. It pains me to read that the Polish embassy has had to put out a statement. It also pains me that Boris et al seem to have no plan. I also remember Farage saying that 52/48 Remain would be unfinished business. Inspite of all that Remain need to accept the result and move on and Leave need to come up with a plan and come out strongly that the Leave win doesn’t mean it’s open season for racists attacks.
Teachwell
June 27, 2016 @ 3:59 pm
I agree and it does concern me too but I think that we need to separate out the incidents and the vote.
As far as Farage is concerned, had the vote gone the other way I would be arguing the exact same thing, even if he wouldn’t.
I honestly don’t think there is an easy answer to this. UKIP had 4 million votes in the last election and have increased their share of the vote in Wales. It is clear that people wanted to vote on EU for immigration as well as other issues. If this had not been allowed the sentiment would have continued and given further succour to Britain First and those on the far right at a time when there is already tension between communities. The far right want to kick off – they find every opportunity they can to do it. I really don’t think we can do anything other than show strength and it would do for all sections of those who wanted to leave to show a united front not just the obvious leaders.
teaching personally
June 27, 2016 @ 3:44 pm
Good comments all – but the desperation borne of deep conviction is not the same as a wish to subvert democracy. Whether the vote was framed in an appropriate way for a matter of this significance is another matter, too. I think another vote could only be justified in one circumstance: to give people the genuine chance for second thoughts now that more is known than was the case before last Thursday.
Teachwell
June 27, 2016 @ 4:04 pm
I disagree completely. If there was a deep conviction then I think a more honest response would have been to seek compromise not try to overturn the vote on a technicality. As for giving people a second chance if they have changed their minds. Fine, and are you going to agree to another referendum after that in case the people who vote next time have second thoughts again? All this is leading to you wanting to change the vote so it goes your way. It isn’t subverting democracy – it is undermining it utterly. I don’t care about the EU enough to do that.
brian
June 27, 2016 @ 5:01 pm
I believe you have done just you seem to find distasteful in others.you seem to assert that an “academic education” is required. You believe those without an academic education might well have voted like “little Englanders”.
You seem to have the same pitiful views of working class people but you at the same time believe that they have the right to have their limited view.
I had no “academic education”.anything I learnt was hard won and I am proud of what I achieved. I was there when we joined and I am likely to be there when we leave.
I quite possibly know more about the EU and its descendants than yourself and I will continue to study the EU whether we end up leaving or not. Yes I believe there is still some possibility we may not leave.
I voted to leave as I believe that to do so is clearly in the best interests of those who do not have an academic education, are working class or are of senior years. I believe they were tight to vote they did but I question whether 30 odd % of the voting public should be able to make this decision.
To mix this predicament with giving an academic education to the lower classes is for me wrong. I feel you are misguided in your crusade to save the poor.
We cannot all be wealthy. The gap between rich and poor is growing, partly as a result of giving an ever larger share of the population an academic education. At least they now have the sense to know their vast debts make them poorer, that’s what a proper education does for you.
Teachwell
June 30, 2016 @ 10:33 pm
“I believe you have done just you seem to find distasteful in others.you seem to assert that an “academic education” is required. You believe those without an academic education might well have voted like “little Englanders”.” “You seem to have the same pitiful views of working class people but you at the same time believe that they have the right to have their limited view.”
This is all projection or possibly you not actually reading the post. It does not relate to what I wrote.
“I quite possibly know more about the EU and its descendants than yourself”
Also, I already made the point that there would be many people who would know more than me – so really not sure what point you are trying to make here. Please clarify the criteria on which you make the assumption that you know more than me about the EU. Also, the EU doesn’t have descendants. Do you mean Europeans?
“and I will continue to study the EU whether we end up leaving or not. ”
Good for you.
“Yes I believe there is still some possibility we may not leave.” “I voted to leave”
You voted to leave and now you regret it? Not sure what the deal is here but it seems to me that you are very confused about this whole referendum. Also it is bizarre that you are attacking a remain supporter for respecting the decision of leave voters like yourself. I think this is an example of where you comment on people’s posts just to spew out some invective rather than because you actually have a real point to make.
“as I believe that to do so is clearly in the best interests of those who do not have an academic education, are working class or are of senior years. ”
You don’t need to vote on behalf of other people – that’s why we all get one vote each.
“I believe they were tight to vote they did but I question whether 30 odd % of the voting public should be able to make this decision.”
When did you do that? Before, during or after the referendum? I think it is fair to question to rules and discuss how or even if the referendum should have been conducted. What I don’t think is acceptable is to suddenly decide after the fact that it isn’t unless there is a reason that would invalidate the vote – such as fraud, harassment, etc.
“To mix this predicament with giving an academic education to the lower classes is for me wrong.”
I don’t think I did so I think we will have to agree to disagree.
“I feel you are misguided in your crusade to save the poor.”
You are entitled to your opinion. All of this is a simple projection of what you think and feel. You do not know me and you certainly do not know me better than myself. I think all people in society should get the same excellent standard of education. People save themselves.
“We cannot all be wealthy.”
Agreed but has nothing to do with my post.
“The gap between rich and poor is growing, partly as a result of giving an ever larger share of the population an academic education.”
You assert without evidence and again nothing to do with my post. You assume I mean a university education when I was referring to education as a whole. We already pay from 5-18. It’s the content I was talking about.
“At least they now have the sense to know their vast debts make them poorer, that’s what a proper education does for you.”
Again you are simply rambling on about some pet issue of yours which has nothing to do with my post. You are conflating ‘proper’ education with a university education.
Brian, I have given you the benefit of the doubt before and I have tried to do so again but if you produce anymore comments like this I am just going to report you outright so you can’t comment on my blog. You will have to find some other outlet.
Alan
July 18, 2016 @ 2:44 pm
Brian
Please read what Teachwell actually wrote.
Teachwell has condemed those who are trying to get a democratic result overturned because the result did not suit them, and are using knee-jerk P.C. sloganeering (e.g. “racist”) to attack their opponents en-mass. Since these people are on “her side” (at least in terms of the E.U. referendum) this is a very brave thing to do.
Well said Teachwell!
“Nil Illigitimae Carborundum”.
Frederick Mosher
August 9, 2016 @ 6:59 am
All those interested in democratic theory, representative democracy, and the comparative analysis of political elites and democratic regimes.